Mr. Sullivan, my 12th grade English teacher, made us dress up in Burger King crowns and sword fight with paper towel tubes to make sense of Shakespeare's Hamlet. Here at the American School in Guadalajara we are going to use the internet instead. In the posts below, follow us as we seek to understand why this really is the greatest play in the English language.
Sunday, April 19, 2009
III, 1
What is Hamlet's attitude towards women? Think of his earlier critique of Gertrude -- "Frailty thy name is woman" -- as well as the way he treats Ophelia in this scene.
He also thinks bad of women mostly because of her mother. He thinks it too a weakenes that she had married twice, and so early after his last husband. He felt deceived by her and so he thinks that women are weak and that they make men weak as well when engaged in a relationship.
A lot of you fellow students and Mr. gerber o course would expect my reaction to this question to be like "I HATE HAMLET HE IS A SEXIST, WOMEN RULE!!!!, ETC" but actually no, that will not be my responce. For one, I entify myself alot with hamlet for some weird reason I cannot really explain it, and puting myself in his place, what else can hethink about women if the women that ae around him are idiots. His behavior I think is a product of the era shakespeare livedin and it istrue that women were seen as deceitful and sin-inciting, in this case women in the play are also easily manpulated and cannot think by theselves, again, not their fault but true. I acually like scence one of the third act but i think that for this have to give the credit to the actor, that plays hamlet because that scene its just to full passion it is not even funny. like even if it is wrong pushing a woman around, which it is, the way he does push ophelia around and put her against the glass its all very passionate and sexy. There is no excuse for calling one's mothera whore and even though i love him, i will never forgive hamlet for the way he treatd his mother during the play. if hamlet lived now-a-days i think he would be a romatic-women-lover.
Agreeing with Alexa's last point ("if hamlet lived now-a-days i think he would be a romatic-women-lover.")...I believe that Hamlet was not really the kind of man who treated women as if they were less. Actually I believe he understands the importance and power of women (He has had to deal with his mother's power and has suffered the consequences of it and for this reason he must undrestand it).... In addition to this I beleieve that his behavior in this scene is nothing but a trap to confuse and engage Polonius and his uncle. I believe he still loves Ophelia and he has only treated her like this, which is in my opinion a treatment that is necessary due to the circumstances but very far away from Hamlet's true feelings and ideas, in order to accomplish his ultimate goal of seeking revenge from the attrocious acts that his uncle and mom have commited. He sacrificed this behavior in order to carry through his plan.
I couldnt agree more with Alexa. Although this scence triggered her senses and reminded her that "She likes it rough", she is right in saying that Hamlet is a very passionate man and that the way he pushes Ophelia around proves her weakness to fight back. Alexa mentioned that it was a characteristic of the time for women to be but puppets to their owners, whether father, husband, or lover. This is true, but in addition, Hamlet is THE PRINCE, and he must be payed respect as so. So, the weakness that Ophelia shows when with Hamlet might turn out to be from fear. When they sit to watch the play, Ophelia's words keep coming out of her mouth, trying to keep responding to Hamlet's comments, instead of keeping quiet. Her relationship with his father is normal in the sense that a father will try to protect his daughter at all costs, but when she is put as bait, that is where the weakness of being manipulated shows itself. Hamlet thinks of women of being unable to take clear decisions. He feels disappointed, mostly by his mother, and she was created for him the image that women should not be trusted, and that they only ruin men. Giselle
giselle please, this is a serious forum for intellectual ideas, please refrain from talking about your repressed fantasies and even more do not use me as a vehicle
It is in my duty do be true to my thoughts and to analyze the subliminal messages behind the writing of a person. I shall ask to be forgiven for such colloquial words I used to refer to Alexa's Modus Operandi, also known as "my repressed fantasies", as expounded by Alexa. God, am I just making this worse? I am truly sorry, Mr. Gerber and classmates. If only there was a way to erase my mistakes. Giselle
oh please giselle... just keep going this just keeps getting better, i think we all realize that is not me you are talking about... this is a safe space for thoughts, c'mon, share with us... repeat with me... I AM GISELLE AND I HAVE A MORBID THOUGHTS PROBLEM
I think Hamlet's treatment towards women is complex, like Publio said, the circumstances he was in led him to act in such away. For example, if the bait was not Ophelia isntead was a man (close friend) I believe that Hamlet's reaction to his betrayal would not have been as "passionate/crazy" as it was in this scene. Considering the time period, you can tell that all the male characters are aware of the drastic impact that women have on a man and that should be taken in account. As much as I can defend our sex, I can comprehend the disintegrating quote due to the time period, of course, I dont agree with it. Ooh and contradicting my fellow classmates... I'm sorry but if Hamlet treated any girl the way he treated Ophelia in this scene in modern days, it wouldn't be cool. Guys can be passionate and sexy in much more appealing ways than shoving you against a mirror, thank you very much. (hahahahahhaa JOKE)
However, he does this because he is deeply affected by everything they do. In a really twisted way, he takes them into consideration. Back then, most men would probably just ignore them and think they were useless, powerless creatures. Hamlet, on the other hand, expects certain things from women. Plus, he knows how powerful they can be -despite seeming very innocent- which is why he always thinks they are somehow guilty. It is sort of like when parents tell you they only scream at you because they love you.
Yep, screwed up logic it is, but it is often true. Hence, I think something similar is happening with Hamlet. I can't decide what would be worse: for him to treat them as bad as he does or for him to not treat them at all.
Hamlet treats women as they were treated at the time Shakespeare wrote his plays,as inferior and intelligent as animals almost. However Hamlet thinks that not only are women inferior, but they are what you would call the "source of all evil", his problems, his sins and those of the men he knows. For example his mother, marrying his charming uncle who murdered his father. Gertrude is dumb enough she hasnt found out already and marrying him so he could become king. Hamlet mistreats women fisically too, like when he shoved Ophelia (who didnt fight back obviously) and his mother (who didnt fight back either)when he confronted her about what was troubling him. Hamlet is very passionate about everything that goes through his mind, and thats why I believ he feels so strongly about women's natural charms and the way they are, even though its how society had shaped them.
me encanta como giselle y alexa solo se meten al blog para tener sus conasiones lol
I think Hamlet has a horible perspective about women and that he treats them badly because of it, not cause he really wants to or because he is like that I think everything started with the mother. How is he to trufst women or treat them nicely when one of the most important wo men in his life treated him like that, and did horrible things. I can say that if he trully hated women he could treat hem worst, no justifying but pointing out. I dont think he treats Ofelia really bad, I mean, he does but thats because he is "crazy" but before tat i didnot believed he treated her badly, as for the mother, i truthfully cannot blame him for thinking or treating her badly, I actually think she deserves it becausecommon, women are way harsher than men when they wan to, so i dont think he can hurt her me that she has hut him.
Hamlet sees women as vulnerable people. He knows that they are easily influated and that can change their mind constantly. The "living" example is his mother. Hamlet knows she is a good woman. HOWEVER while being pressured by Claudius, Gertrude gets married only two months after. Also, Ophelia is seen as the "guilty" one. Hamlet also knows that evenn though being very influential, women are good at heart and he will do anything to prove it. (screaming at his mother.)
Hamlet thinks of women as very deceiving and insincere. He has great reason to think this because of both Gertrude and Ophelia have both mistreated Hamlet’s feelings is some way, Gertrude by remarrying so quickly after she swore everlasting love to Hamlet’s father and Ophelia for avoiding Hamlet when he was in love.
I believe his conception of women is created by what he has gone through, like many all ready mentioned. Gertrude's marriage to Hamlet's uncle has caused Hamlet great affliction and has caused him to believe that women are deceiving and just take use of men not caring about anything else. I also believed, as karla mentioned, that women are very vulnerable and can be treated however man want too because they can be easily controlled and manipulated. In the end, his conceptions about women are based on only one, his own mother. If the circumstances hadn't treated him like they have his views would probably be a little different.
Hamlet has lost respect for women. He treats his mother with disgust and with no respect. I think he acts this way because of what his mother did. When she marriend Hamlets uncle, the view that Hamlet had about his mother changed dramatically, loosing faith in marriage and in love, viewing everything as a political issue.
I think Hampet doesn't give Ophelia a chance, he automatically treats her badly because of the image he has created about women, that is all Gertrudes fault. Hamlet has lost trust on women.
I think Hamlet is a complete jerk! In this case he demonstrates this in the way he treats women. Yes, her mother is complete whore and Ophelia is a naive stupid girl, but still Hamlet does not stay behind. he critizizes his mother, and then goes an treats Ophelia in such ways. I dont care what the issue is, a man should NEVER misstreat a women, throw her around, hit her, push her o any of that! Hamlet just doesn't control himself even when he IS himself. He sees women as beautiful and important, yet weak and as statues. He says they convert men into mosters, when really he is converting into a monster all by himself and his own freaky crazyness. I0m sorry but I just dont like Hamlet he is an arrogant, spoiled and terribly educated man.
Hamlet does not think much of women. He sees them as being weak creatures who will change thir mind atan given time without much consideration and who are easily manipulated. However, at some level, it's understandable. After all, this was written by Shakespeare at a time when that was what women were seen as. They were weak, ragil creatures who were only supposed to look pretty. They were supposed to say what they really though, if they thought at all, and they were only meant to sit there and look pretty. Plus, it has been tradition for a very long time to blame women for everything that goes wrong in the world. Whether we like it or not, this is the world Shakespeare was living in. Only beacause of this, i sorta maybe forgive him. However, if he were alive now, and wrote something like that, i would so kick his ass.
^^ Hooray Pili, for stealing the words from my mouth! (I think this is a bad question. Seriously Mr. Gerber, all you're going to get is the same basic thing typed 22 times over). Anyways, I don't think Hamlet treats women badly at all... Not that anyone should go around pushing their girlfriends around, but I don't think he had any intention of hurting Ophelia. Look at the circumstances surrounding Hamlet: -His mother just married his uncle - His girlfriend is her father's pawn and she just dumped him -He is Prince and probably very used to having women fawn over him. If I were him, I'd think women were frail, useless creatures too. Even if I was a girl Hamlet (Hannah, maybe?).
Hamlet is the typical ignorant guy of that period who thinks that women are inferior. I think the way that her mother acted and how Ophelia acts all weak around him, he definitely considers women as inferior.
Sorry for the late post, too many tests this week :(
Hamlet beleives women are deceivers, that they make men beasts and they make the world a worse place.
ReplyDeleteAlex Verlage
He also thinks bad of women mostly because of her mother. He thinks it too a weakenes that she had married twice, and so early after his last husband. He felt deceived by her and so he thinks that women are weak and that they make men weak as well when engaged in a relationship.
ReplyDeleteAurora van Zoelen
A lot of you fellow students and Mr. gerber o course would expect my reaction to this question to be like "I HATE HAMLET HE IS A SEXIST, WOMEN RULE!!!!, ETC"
ReplyDeletebut actually no, that will not be my responce. For one, I entify myself alot with hamlet for some weird reason I cannot really explain it, and puting myself in his place, what else can hethink about women if the women that ae around him are idiots.
His behavior I think is a product of the era shakespeare livedin and it istrue that women were seen as deceitful and sin-inciting, in this case women in the play are also easily manpulated and cannot think by theselves, again, not their fault but true.
I acually like scence one of the third act but i think that for this have to give the credit to the actor, that plays hamlet because that scene its just to full passion it is not even funny. like even if it is wrong pushing a woman around, which it is, the way he does push ophelia around and put her against the glass its all very passionate and sexy.
There is no excuse for calling one's mothera whore and even though i love him, i will never forgive hamlet for the way he treatd his mother during the play.
if hamlet lived now-a-days i think he would be a romatic-women-lover.
good night
Agreeing with Alexa's last point ("if hamlet lived now-a-days i think he would be a romatic-women-lover.")...I believe that Hamlet was not really the kind of man who treated women as if they were less. Actually I believe he understands the importance and power of women (He has had to deal with his mother's power and has suffered the consequences of it and for this reason he must undrestand it).... In addition to this I beleieve that his behavior in this scene is nothing but a trap to confuse and engage Polonius and his uncle. I believe he still loves Ophelia and he has only treated her like this, which is in my opinion a treatment that is necessary due to the circumstances but very far away from Hamlet's true feelings and ideas, in order to accomplish his ultimate goal of seeking revenge from the attrocious acts that his uncle and mom have commited. He sacrificed this behavior in order to carry through his plan.
ReplyDeleteI couldnt agree more with Alexa. Although this scence triggered her senses and reminded her that "She likes it rough", she is right in saying that Hamlet is a very passionate man and that the way he pushes Ophelia around proves her weakness to fight back. Alexa mentioned that it was a characteristic of the time for women to be but puppets to their owners, whether father, husband, or lover. This is true, but in addition, Hamlet is THE PRINCE, and he must be payed respect as so. So, the weakness that Ophelia shows when with Hamlet might turn out to be from fear. When they sit to watch the play, Ophelia's words keep coming out of her mouth, trying to keep responding to Hamlet's comments, instead of keeping quiet. Her relationship with his father is normal in the sense that a father will try to protect his daughter at all costs, but when she is put as bait, that is where the weakness of being manipulated shows itself.
ReplyDeleteHamlet thinks of women of being unable to take clear decisions. He feels disappointed, mostly by his mother, and she was created for him the image that women should not be trusted, and that they only ruin men.
Giselle
giselle please, this is a serious forum for intellectual ideas, please refrain from talking about your repressed fantasies and even more do not use me as a vehicle
ReplyDeleteLOL
ReplyDeleteIt is in my duty do be true to my thoughts and to analyze the subliminal messages behind the writing of a person. I shall ask to be forgiven for such colloquial words I used to refer to Alexa's Modus Operandi, also known as "my repressed fantasies", as expounded by Alexa. God, am I just making this worse? I am truly sorry, Mr. Gerber and classmates. If only there was a way to erase my mistakes.
ReplyDeleteGiselle
oh please giselle... just keep going this just keeps getting better, i think we all realize that is not me you are talking about... this is a safe space for thoughts, c'mon, share with us... repeat with me... I AM GISELLE AND I HAVE A MORBID THOUGHTS PROBLEM
ReplyDelete*hoping mr. gerber doesn't get mad*
NTC amiga, I love you... this is all a joke to keep yall entretained... never mind our crazyness
ReplyDeletei AM GISELLE AND I HAVE A MORBID THOUGHTS PROBLEM
ReplyDeletehahahaha
ReplyDeleteHey who wrote that? Giselle
ReplyDeleteHELLO GISELLE, WELCOME...
ReplyDelete*in chorus*
I think Hamlet's treatment towards women is complex, like Publio said, the circumstances he was in led him to act in such away. For example, if the bait was not Ophelia isntead was a man (close friend) I believe that Hamlet's reaction to his betrayal would not have been as "passionate/crazy" as it was in this scene. Considering the time period, you can tell that all the male characters are aware of the drastic impact that women have on a man and that should be taken in account.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I can defend our sex, I can comprehend the disintegrating quote due to the time period, of course, I dont agree with it.
Ooh and contradicting my fellow classmates... I'm sorry but if Hamlet treated any girl the way he treated Ophelia in this scene in modern days, it wouldn't be cool. Guys can be passionate and sexy in much more appealing ways than shoving you against a mirror, thank you very much. (hahahahahhaa JOKE)
Carolina Barbosa Haddad
Hamlet treats women horribly.
ReplyDeleteHowever, he does this because he is deeply affected by everything they do. In a really twisted way, he takes them into consideration. Back then, most men would probably just ignore them and think they were useless, powerless creatures. Hamlet, on the other hand, expects certain things from women. Plus, he knows how powerful they can be -despite seeming very innocent- which is why he always thinks they are somehow guilty. It is sort of like when parents tell you they only scream at you because they love you.
Yep, screwed up logic it is, but it is often true. Hence, I think something similar is happening with Hamlet. I can't decide what would be worse: for him to treat them as bad as he does or for him to not treat them at all.
Hamlet treats women as they were treated at the time Shakespeare wrote his plays,as inferior and intelligent as animals almost. However Hamlet thinks that not only are women inferior, but they are what you would call the "source of all evil", his problems, his sins and those of the men he knows. For example his mother, marrying his charming uncle who murdered his father. Gertrude is dumb enough she hasnt found out already and marrying him so he could become king. Hamlet mistreats women fisically too, like when he shoved Ophelia (who didnt fight back obviously) and his mother (who didnt fight back either)when he confronted her about what was troubling him. Hamlet is very passionate about everything that goes through his mind, and thats why I believ he feels so strongly about women's natural charms and the way they are, even though its how society had shaped them.
ReplyDeleteMaria Astrid Quirarte :)
me encanta como giselle y alexa solo se meten al blog para tener sus conasiones lol
ReplyDeleteI think Hamlet has a horible perspective about women and that he treats them badly because of it, not cause he really wants to or because he is like that I think everything started with the mother. How is he to trufst women or treat them nicely when one of the most important wo men in his life treated him like that, and did horrible things. I can say that if he trully hated women he could treat hem worst, no justifying but pointing out. I dont think he treats Ofelia really bad, I mean, he does but thats because he is "crazy" but before tat i didnot believed he treated her badly, as for the mother, i truthfully cannot blame him for thinking or treating her badly, I actually think she deserves it becausecommon, women are way harsher than men when they wan to, so i dont think he can hurt her me that she has hut him.
Hamlet sees women as vulnerable people. He knows that they are easily influated and that can change their mind constantly. The "living" example is his mother. Hamlet knows she is a good woman. HOWEVER while being pressured by Claudius, Gertrude gets married only two months after. Also, Ophelia is seen as the "guilty" one. Hamlet also knows that evenn though being very influential, women are good at heart and he will do anything to prove it. (screaming at his mother.)
ReplyDeleteKARLA(:
Hamlet thinks of women as very deceiving and insincere. He has great reason to think this because of both Gertrude and Ophelia have both mistreated Hamlet’s feelings is some way, Gertrude by remarrying so quickly after she swore everlasting love to Hamlet’s father and Ophelia for avoiding Hamlet when he was in love.
ReplyDelete-Evan Baker
maria jose celis
ReplyDeleteHamlet treats women really bad.
I believe his conception of women is created by what he has gone through, like many all ready mentioned. Gertrude's marriage to Hamlet's uncle has caused Hamlet great affliction and has caused him to believe that women are deceiving and just take use of men not caring about anything else.
I also believed, as karla mentioned, that women are very vulnerable and can be treated however man want too because they can be easily controlled and manipulated.
In the end, his conceptions about women are based on only one, his own mother. If the circumstances hadn't treated him like they have his views would probably be a little different.
Hamlet has lost respect for women. He treats his mother with disgust and with no respect. I think he acts this way because of what his mother did. When she marriend Hamlets uncle, the view that Hamlet had about his mother changed dramatically, loosing faith in marriage and in love, viewing everything as a political issue.
ReplyDeleteI think Hampet doesn't give Ophelia a chance, he automatically treats her badly because of the image he has created about women, that is all Gertrudes fault. Hamlet has lost trust on women.
Macarena
I think Hamlet is a complete jerk! In this case he demonstrates this in the way he treats women. Yes, her mother is complete whore and Ophelia is a naive stupid girl, but still Hamlet does not stay behind. he critizizes his mother, and then goes an treats Ophelia in such ways. I dont care what the issue is, a man should NEVER misstreat a women, throw her around, hit her, push her o any of that! Hamlet just doesn't control himself even when he IS himself. He sees women as beautiful and important, yet weak and as statues. He says they convert men into mosters, when really he is converting into a monster all by himself and his own freaky crazyness.
ReplyDeleteI0m sorry but I just dont like Hamlet he is an arrogant, spoiled and terribly educated man.
Maria Jose Fernandez
Hamlet does not think much of women. He sees them as being weak creatures who will change thir mind atan given time without much consideration and who are easily manipulated.
ReplyDeleteHowever, at some level, it's understandable. After all, this was written by Shakespeare at a time when that was what women were seen as. They were weak, ragil creatures who were only supposed to look pretty. They were supposed to say what they really though, if they thought at all, and they were only meant to sit there and look pretty. Plus, it has been tradition for a very long time to blame women for everything that goes wrong in the world. Whether we like it or not, this is the world Shakespeare was living in. Only beacause of this, i sorta maybe forgive him.
However, if he were alive now, and wrote something like that, i would so kick his ass.
Pilar Arechiga
^^ Hooray Pili, for stealing the words from my mouth!
ReplyDelete(I think this is a bad question. Seriously Mr. Gerber, all you're going to get is the same basic thing typed 22 times over).
Anyways, I don't think Hamlet treats women badly at all... Not that anyone should go around pushing their girlfriends around, but I don't think he had any intention of hurting Ophelia.
Look at the circumstances surrounding Hamlet:
-His mother just married his uncle
- His girlfriend is her father's pawn and she just dumped him
-He is Prince and probably very used to having women fawn over him.
If I were him, I'd think women were frail, useless creatures too. Even if I was a girl Hamlet (Hannah, maybe?).
Lina Silva
Edit: Hamlet is the prince, NOT a pop star.
ReplyDeleteHaha.
Lina Silva
Hamlet is the typical ignorant guy of that period who thinks that women are inferior. I think the way that her mother acted and how Ophelia acts all weak around him, he definitely considers women as inferior.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the late post, too many tests this week :(
Sun Young
Closed.
ReplyDelete-Mr. Paul
PS: Alexa and Giselle ... you guys crack me up.